Daniel: Okay. We are all set to go. Ladies and gentlemen, doctors of chiropractic, welcome to the Tuesday Webinar Series, “Chiropractic Economics Webinar for Doctors of Chiropractic.” I’m Daniel Sosnoski, the editor in chief of Chiropractic Economics. And today’s webinar, “How to Treat Injuries of Professional and Weekend Warriors” is sponsored by Sombra. And, as always, our program is being recorded and will be archived at Chiropractic Economics website, chiroeco.com/webinar, for one year. Our experts are on board here today to speak with you and when their presentation is complete we’ll follow with a question and answer period. You can submit questions throughout the presentation by clicking on the appropriate icon on the right side or bottom of your screen.
Our presenters today are Mike Winkeljohn who trains and coaches mixed martial arts spiders, and is the owner of Jackson Wink Professional MMA Training Academy. He’s also an accomplished martial artist himself holding multiple championship titles. Our other expert is Michael Pridham, DC. he’s been practicing martial arts for 28 years and is a second degree blackbelt in taekwondo. He currently teaches Tai Chi at Equilibrium Wellness Center which he founded. They are here to help you understand the types of injuries that professional and weekend warriors experience, and how the doctor of chiropractic can treat and prevent them. Mike and Dr. Pridham, thank you for taking the time to participate in our webinar and for sharing your expertise with treating martial artists and helping our audience understand how these patients present unique challenges. If you’re ready, you may begin the presentation, please.
Dr. Pridham: All right. Thank you, Daniel. It’s such an honor to be here with Coach Mike Winkeljohn. And I love working with fighters because I am one. Albuquerque is a major hub for MMA and martial arts just really instills discipline, respect, and gives people purpose. And Mike, do you find in your fighters? Do you feel like martial arts really gives people a purpose?
Mike: Oh, yeah, most definitely. You know what, they are athletes but, in the core, it’s all about traditional values and going forward with those values properly in life. And the life skills that martial arts teaches people I think is beneficial to everybody in the world and everybody needs to do more and more of it.
Dr. Pridham: So, in the course of training martial arts, there’s a lot of injuries that can occur. And I want you to tell us about this fighter.
Mike: That’s my guy there. That’s John Jones considered pound-for-pound…on the left, pound-for-pound best fighter in the world. He actually won that fight against [inaudible 00:03:29] there but he had injured his foot. So, he’s the one that’s in the hospital bed and his fighter post-fight talking to him. There’s a lot of injuries that go on in what we’re doing. Usually, what I see is a lot of stuff that chiropractors could help take care of, their joint coming out, you know, things just out of balance and that’s why we’re here today.
Dr. Pridham: I love the picture with John Jones because it just really shows the mutual respect that fighters have for each other after the fight. And here’s another one of your guys, Carlos Condit.
Mike: Yeah, that’s pretty cool. Yeah. Carlos is looking good there. The injury is not gonna be his knee, it’s gonna be the other guy. The guy probably suffered a concussion from that and that’s, you know, something that definitely happens with our fighters. That’s kind of scary. I know that’s something that you’re doing a lot of work with and that’s the scariest thing. I’ve seen people die, you know, in the ring, in the cage and it’s not a good thing. But usually what had happened is this, I’ll tell you a story real quick, is I was fighting in The Forum in L.A. I was getting ready to go out in the main event and go and watch the fight in front of me and there’s some guy got knocked down but he had a good fight.
He comes walking back, all of a sudden he falls down. I look at him, he’s just laying there and they said, “Wink, you’re on.” So, I went and fought, I came back, he died. What I had found out was he had previously fought about three days previously and he had been knocked out but he did that and nobody knew about it, and he fought again. So, that’s one of those things that with the proper people around who guide them, these things won’t happen. So, if he can get the work on him that he needs and the trainers and people are aware, these bad situations won’t happen.
Dr. Pridham: That’s such an important lesson to learn for us, especially with MMA being the fastest growing sport in the world. It’s just really important for doctors to kinda know how to treat injuries. And a lot of the times, chiropractors will be ringside doctors and I kinda put this flowchart together to help people understand what you should be looking for in a fight. So, if someone gets knocked unconscious, you should stop the fight immediately. If they’re not knocked unconscious but they’re able to defend, then you can let the fight continue. But if you have any neurologic findings or orthopedic findings then you got to stop that fight even if you don’t want to.
This is a flowchart that can be used with any kind of injury from the most basic to the most severe. And so you always wanna think about your ABCs, your airways, blood, and circulation. And it’s kind of a complex chart, but basically, if someone’s not breathing, if they’re bleeding, or they’ve lost circulation then you need to get the emergency procedures going right away. And then help the emergency responders explain what kind of an injury it was, if it was head trauma versus any other kind of trauma. Mike, could you tell us about some experiences in the ring that you’ve maybe had to throw in a towel?
Mike: Oh, yeah. You know what, I’ve had those situations before and, you know, one that comes to mind is just a kid that was actually getting, you know, hammered over and over and over, and the referee wouldn’t stop it. And I’ve had to throw the towel in because, you know, to me it’s all about them not getting hurt. But sometimes, you can’t see that. I had a girl, Holly Holmes was a very big name, you know, around the world for MMA. She was in a boxing match and she got knocked out by this big girl that she fought out of her weight division. Although I didn’t have to throw it there, she matched the girl to win, but in this fight she got hit numerous times and she sat down in the corner.
She looked at me and I thought she was all there. She went back out. She was winning part of the round but then she got hit but the referee was in between me and her. And it breaks my heart because if I would have seen how bad she got hit, I would have thrown the towel. Then she got hit again, she was kinda like hanging on the rope so, you know, unconscious, and one of the worst moments in my life. But it’s all about, you know, being there, being aware. But I’m lucky, with MMA, we don’t usually get those type of head trauma things. It’s usually non-emergency type of injuries, more chiropractic things. People step funny, put their knee out. They get bi-locked, hugging each other real tight, and a rib comes out when they hit the ground. And the non-stop things that are caused by imbalance that you guys in the world better, much smarter than us can help us take care of our fighters with.
Dr. Pridham: Yeah. Well, I think that most chiropractors around the country would love to work with fighters because seeing the fighting spirit and just what you all just put your whole life into training is so inspiring. With treatment, a lot of the times before we used to think rest, ice, compression, elevation. And in the last few years, there’s been some research that says that maybe ice isn’t necessarily the best modality. And I know you and I have talked about how you still find that there’s really good benefit with people that use ice for the first 48 hours.
Mike: Yeah. And we found like a 10-minute on type of situation but you gotta get that blood flow, you got to get the blood flow going. I’m sure there’s some studies that are much smarter than we are but through experience we get the swelling down right away. And my fighters will be back to training that much faster when they don’t over-ice but they have used ice as part of their regimen.
Dr. Pridham: Yeah. And I think this is kind of emerging science that may or may not continue to go in that direction. But I’m always interested in people in the field that can learn about different processes. And one promising avenue has been topical analgesics that can actually take the place of ice after that first 48 hours. And you have over-the-counter preparations that have high concentrations of menthol, then there’s herbal formulas that some have been around for thousands of years, like dit da jow, essentials oils are coming up, and so is CBD. And then there’s other prescription topicals with lidocaine and ketoprofen, and others that can be pretty beneficial as well. Have you found that topical analgesics are beneficial for your fighters?
Mike: Oh, yeah. You know what, all my guys use like some of the products to warm their muscles up before the workouts. And being warm is so important so they don’t injure themselves. People need to put some time into stretching and warming up slowly, and getting their body ready for these explosive movements that are needed in MMA. And, of course, post, the analgesics that have a cooling effects are very good as far as, you know, getting them to rehab their muscles after injury and/or just help them with rest. So, we use them quite a bit in our gym.
Dr. Pridham: That’s great. Kinesio taping is something else that is a local here in Albuquerque. Dr. Kenzo Kase lives here and he invented taping, kinesio taping. And I found a study here that was specific to martial arts with Kendo performance of taping the Achilles tendon and it showed that it was very beneficial. Do a lot of the fighters work with kinesio tape as well?
Mike: Oh, yeah. My fighters always…they’re running around with kinesio tape on daily. They like the benefit of it. You know, as far as a little bit of extra support in what they’re doing, so they use that as well.
Dr. Pridham: So, spinal manipulation has been around for thousands of years. Used in Ancient Greece, China, and all throughout the martial arts world for thousands of years. Hands-on approach with chiropractic medicine I believe is probably one of the best ways to approach fighters that have been injured.
Mike: Oh, yeah. No doubt, Doc. The guys are constantly…we have an in-house chiropractor here and what I found is best for our fighters is…well, Western medicine, of course, is [inaudible 00:12:38] but the chiropractors and people that do hands-on work, that’s the most beneficial. I like all the stuff everybody wants to do, electrical machines and things like that. But when it comes to hands-on that you do best, they can get things lined up between back and balance. They give muscles to relieve so they don’t pull things back out. The hands-on has definitely been, by far, the most beneficial thing that we use to help keep my fighters, you know, back in training.
Dr. Pridham: Yeah, that’s wonderful. When I first started in martial arts, this is kinda when I was exposed to chiropractic medicine, and I saw a very strong similarity between the two. And I’ve always wanted to incorporate the two so it’s so exciting to be on this call. There’s chiropractic neurologists that deal with a lot of the head trauma and the post-concussive syndrome. And maybe we have some on the call that can chime in later, that’s a great approach. There’s also rehabilitation with physical therapy, physiological therapeutics, and other ancient systems like Tai chi and yoga that are meant to restore balance within a system. And I know you talked about balance, especially within fighters and when people are predominantly right-handed or if they’re South Paw.
Mike: Oh, yeah. Exactly, doc. You know what, I get guys that will work one side more than the other because they prefer one side for striking and for wrestling. And at first when they’re young, it doesn’t seem to cause as many problems. But as you get older and the body is out of balance, it’s non-stop injuries because of it. I think because they have to support their body in different ways because they have to counteract some way, just so many things are going on because of the imbalance that they’re more susceptible to injuries. So, I try as much as possible to make people do things symmetrical with all their exercises, all their activities, not only just for the physical side of it but also for the mental side of it. I believe they learn faster when they do both sides.
Dr. Pridham: That’s great. And so, acupuncture is another approach that can help with fighters. And then needling, cupping, and moxibustion has been beneficial. Moxibustion is burning a type of incense on the needles that can bring in heat to areas that are maybe damp and the needling helps with restoring the balance within the meridians, the kind of flow of energy. And have you used a lot of acupuncture in the past?
Mike: You know, I have, actually. Actually, I got hit hard one time and my neck got knocked out. I had it adjusted by a chiropractor, I had a lot of things that were done to get a little bit better. But it kept going out, I had absolutely like 20% the strength of my arm that I had before. It was actually stupid how it felt. I went to an acupuncturist, and done. It was amazing just to, I became a believer that day in what it can do. So, I think it’s a combination of a lot of different therapies out there that are not Western medicine are best. Like I said, the acupuncture definitely worked for me that day.
Dr. Pridham: Yeah. Integrative approach has definitely been touted as being kind of a good approach. Sometimes you need to give…people will work with devices. There’s high-powered lasers, low-level lasers, a lot of different trans-direct current stimulation, and things that work across your brain, on different aspects of the brain. Post-electric, electromagnetic frequency has been beneficial. TENS units, you can give to patients to take home and they can help use it, kinda control their pain at home. Ultrasound and interferential are all pretty beneficial at times. So, as far as diagnostic imaging, a lot of the times you need to just kind of determine if there’s been an injury that is gonna require some imaging. You kinda need to know which ones to order, whether you’re looking at nerves and soft tissue, or broken bones, or bleeding in the brain perhaps, and other things like pneumothorax or dislocation. There’s some examples of some pretty bad breaks and there’s an example of a horrendous injury in the ring.
Mike: Yep. That’s a good one, Doc, right there. That actually happened to one of my best friends.
Dr. Pridham: What have you seen the time frame for this kind of an injury for the fighter to get back into the ring?
Mike: Oh, gosh. Something like that, we’re talking about, well, with my buddy and stuff, it was actually compound fracture but it took a long time. You know, he was out for six months because it’s so horrendous. Something like this, it’s Comora right here, turned the shoulders, pinned, if the guy doesn’t tap out, which is the compassion that the MMA score had. I bet some guys so tough they won’t. Depends how bad things start ripping, get torn apart. These things could be from, you know, you have a good therapist that can get in there and had hands-on approach. They’re back in action, you know, three or four weeks, or they’re out again for a long time.
Dr. Pridham: Yeah. Here’s an example of some reconstruction and the surgeries that will happen. And there’s injections that can be performed if all the other conservative measurements haven’t really gone through, haven’t taken out the pain. So, in New Mexico, chiropractors can do some trigger point injections and prolotherapies. Others, you need to refer out selective nerve root blocks and epidurals. I work with the university system here and hear of some pretty horrendous pain that just will not improve. So, good to have that to be able to refer to. I have some tips for kind of beginner martial artists or weekend warriors. It’s important to be balanced and to start out slow. If you’re gonna get into MMA, for example, you don’t want to just go straight into it. You wanna start working out, and you wanna eat well, and find a style that’s really right for you. Warm up and make sure you tap out.
Mike: Well, you have to leave your ego out of it a little bit but definitely the warming up is very important. You know, be healthy, eat well, and be in balance. I mean we’ve talked about all these crazy injuries you’ve been talking about on the slides. But honestly, most of them, 99% of them are the kind of non-emergency injuries that the hands-on approach has always helped us out in getting the guys back in. And so if the guys are balanced, for starters, if they warm up, maybe they use like a similar product, whatever the case is, warm up, and take the time warming up, they don’t get injured. But when they do get injured, we need the help of a good chiropractor, a good physical therapist type of person that can get in there, help us get them lined back up, getting joints back together so the body functions properly so they don’t step funny, they don’t tweak their knees because of being out of balance.
Dr. Pridham: Do you have a pretty good beginners class? I know that you also have an adaptive class. I was wondering if you could speak about it.
Mike: Well, yeah, we do. You know, our gym right now, we always take professional fighters. I have, you know, a couple hundred fighters, they’re from all around the world. It’s kind of the number one gym in the world. People actually come here to train in our facility then they go back out to fight. So, it’s kind of a different situation here but we also have an adaptive MMA program. And we’re finding that just getting in there and tussling but learning the moves in a controlled, fun environment makes these people that might have special needs feel normal. They’re energized by it, it definitely helps my fighters feel better about their current situation because they’ve been dealt a very good hand of cards. And other people have not been dealt such a good hand but they’re still playing it. But as long as you do these things you have here just for beginners, you know, start slow, find out what they can or can’t do, I think is beneficial for everybody.
Dr. Pridham: I’ve seen the video with Diego Sanchez sparring a fighter with Down’s syndrome and it was very inspiring to see that video.
Mike: Oh, yeah. We got kids with no arms and legs that basically do cartwheels and almost get on their head and try to find a stub to hit with. It’s the coolest stuff we have going on. I’m real jazzed about it.
Dr. Pridham: Yeah. So, some tips that I can give my fellow chiropractors out there to treating martial artists is to go train with them. And you don’t have to get in the ring with them but I think it’s really beneficial to get in and see the types of biomechanics and the forces that they incur. I say sponsor fighters, the previous fight was one of the fighters that I’m sponsoring, Armando Gomez de Silva is an upcomer, and just keep learning. Some tips for treating weekend warriors. Weekend warriors experience very similar injuries to the ones we’re talking about, the muscle spasms and sprains and strains. And if you go in with the idea that you’re gonna treat them just like you would an elite athlete then your practice is gonna grow and you’re just gonna flourish. There’s some references, and at this point I’d say we can open up to questions.
Daniel: Okay. Well, up to now, I’d like to thank you, Mike and Dr. Pridham. This has been really informative. And before we get to the Q&A section, I have just a couple of remarks, that if you’d like to comment on them, I’d be very happy. We recently ran an article about a doctor of chiropractic who treats an entire gym of Crossfit athletes. And the way that she got that business was she went to the gym and she approached the gym owner who was also the head trainer. And she said, “I’d like to be your gym chiropractor because I know that, you know, the Crossfit tends to be physically demanding and can cause injuries.” And the woman said, “Well, I’ll make you a deal. I’ll let you be, but first, you got to take a week’s worth of classes here at the gym.” So, this woman, DC, went ahead and joined the gym for a week and got to enjoy it so much she became a regular, and she’s been doing it now for several years. And when you said, ‘To treat athletes, you have to be an athlete,” I thought that really underscored the opponent. You have to have authenticity or legitimacy to a martial arts fighter if he’s going to put his health care in your hands. Any comments about that?
Dr. Pridham: Yeah, I would agree completely. And when I first started in practice, I knew that I wanted to work with fighters. And I was a little too nervous to have my first fighter and have them as elite athlete, so I practiced for a while before I started to kinda reach out to that target market. But I found that with…I ski a lot and so I joined a ski patrol just because I kind of wanted to learn more about the emergency procedures that occur before the hospital. And when I’m out there on the slopes, I wanna be able to know how to help out somebody if somebody gets injury.
And what I found is that doing that kind of training has really helped with being a ringside doctor or to work with fighters in the gym. Because especially with physically demanding sports like Crossfit, there’s occasionally some pretty bad injuries that are gonna require some emergency medicine at first, at least stabilization. And I would highly encourage people to do outdoor emergency care, workshops, or wilderness first responders classes just so that you can cover the gamut of emergency medicine all the way up through rehabilitation. I think it would be very beneficial for all the doctors on the line.
Daniel: I agree.
Mike: Oh, okay, I’m sorry. I think that just getting in there and getting used to whatever the sport is, you build rapport in people, which is so important. There’s that huge respect. In MMA, it’s so different and I really would never want anybody going there and get punched in the head. But it is something in the martial arts realm to have a better understanding of the injuries, how they happen, and how to keep them from happening. And I think that would make everybody better. So, over and above, for martial arts, I think anybody gets in there himself is gonna be that much better of a doctor.
Daniel: Yes. When you were presenting the slide on horrendous injuries, I was thinking that fighters train to be really tough and to push through pain. And so, perhaps they don’t respond to pain or injury as a normal person would, which would increase the odds of them experiencing a more serious trauma?
Mike: Oh, most definitely. I know these guys are goofballs in that they won’t ever, ever ask…you know, showing weakness is not something that’s part of their DNA. They’re all alpha males or alpha females, you know? And with that being said, it does set them up for some things. You have to tell them to stop. But now, if they have a groin pull, so they walking funny, all of a sudden the knee gets tweaked a little bit. So, with MMA people, you just have to be aware of what’s going on, what injury they have, and take care of it. Make sure they’re doings things properly. But I have a bunch of goofballs, there’s no doubt about it.
Dr. Pridham: And the last thing you wanna do is let them go into fight if you think that they’re not gonna…if that injury is gonna keep them from winning or from hurting themselves. If you see that that’s gonna be something that might set them up for a long-term pain then you definitely wanna have a talk with them and with the coach, and kinda advise against that.
Daniel: Okay. We’ve collected a few questions from the audience and I would like to get to those now. Either or both of you are cordially invite to address them. A doctor asks the following. I have patients in their 40s who play sports on the weekend like they’re still in college. Despite their injuries, they won’t stop and they expect me to fix everything that’s wrong with them. Are there one or two adjustments, or similar, that can make the biggest difference?
Dr. Pridham: That’s a great question and a lot of the times that does happen. People want…they hear miracle stories from us and they expect that miracle every time. I think if you’re adjusting and you’re not really getting that dramatic effect then you kinda wanna figure out what they can do in the meantime to help balance out their structures. So, I would look at everything from posture, and the position that they sleep, and see if there’s something that they’re doing to themselves repetitively that they can change. And that might be, like we talked about before, if they’re always doing something with the right, such as things like tennis, golf, or snowboarding that they try to balance out the other side.
As far as adjustments, or that silver bullet, it kinda depends upon what the issue is. But I found that for the most part the transitional segments between the cervical and the thoracic spine, the thoracic and the lumbar spine, and the lumbar and the sacral spine are usually the areas that if you only had one or two adjustments to do, I love the prone cervical CT junction adjustments because that helps balance out the neck and the upper back. And most people are really lacking in thoracic extension, for example. So, just really figuring out what the core of the issue is.
Daniel: If I can just ask, you mentioned topical therapy as well, like during a warm up, are there injuries that you would use a topical treatment on as well?
Dr. Pridham: Yes.
Mike: You know, with my fighters and stuff, sometimes they use like a cold type of cream afterwards when they’re done working out. And that seemed to help them a little bit. And then I have had some guys before in the past that sometimes they’ll do like a hot-cold therapy, off and on. They’ll use topical creams for that. But we use, you know, the analgesic type of things quite often.
Dr. Pridham: And then, Mike, I don’t know if you’ve had any problem with, there’s a lot of CBD products on the market, and I’ve heard of people using CBDs and then testing positive for THC. Have you seen that in any of your fighters?
Mike: Actually, no, I have not been able to track it to CBD. The guys that have tested positive in the past, when it was illegal, have THC in their system. But now, it’s pretty much been legalized across the board and stuff. My guys get it in their system because they smoke put, because they’re a young age. But, anyway, I’m not even joking. Anyway, so CBD, no, I have not ran into that at all. Usually, what I found with people that use CBD is it’s great for them, especially on the behavioral side, just the calming affect on the pain is what I’ve seen come out of that product.
Dr. Pridham: Yeah. I’ve seen the same in my practice. And I’ve gone to the USADA website to look for banned, specific banned substances just in case.
Mike: Oh, yeah.
Daniel: That’s a topic that Chiropractic Economics has addressed in a number of articles, including feature articles. And generally, there’s a distinction between what they call full spectrum and isolate CBD. And the isolate CBDs are really distilled to make sure that there’s hardly, even the most remote trace elements of THC, and those are pretty safe for the collegiate athlete and so forth. Okay. We have another question. I saw a mention of prolotherapy. Are there any concerns you have about using it?
Dr. Pridham: Prolotherapy is not completely, you know, researched with anything. It’s always changing. As far as prolotherapy, I kind of like the concept of it because it works in a different mechanism than steroid injections. Steroid injections are known to decrease inflammation and stop the pain but they can be destructive long term. You can’t have too many over a period of time because it actually starts to break down the tissues. So, prolotherapy is a good way to kind of use injections if with natural products so that you get the body to start healing itself. So, it’s short for proliferative therapy, which is to make the cells start to regenerate.
Daniel: So, my understanding of prolotherapy, this may be a new concept for some of people in the audience, it’s that after a trauma, when the body starts to sort of heal itself, the healing mechanism starts to slow down or even begin to turn off. And prolotherapy is an injection of a saline solution, usually at the site of an injury, to sort of re-trigger the body’s healing response. Is that the concept?
Dr. Pridham: Yes, correct. Depending upon who’s doing the injections, you can use sugar, dextrose, and kind of re-stimulate the healing process. Homeopathics can be added to it, such as tromil. And in a lot of cases, they’re using the patient’s own blood, where they draw the blood up, and it’s called PRP, platelet rich plasma, where they spin it down and take out most of the plasma and then get all of the platelets and it can act like a stem cell injection. And I’ve heard that that’s pretty beneficial for several fighters.
Daniel: Right. And I have one more question. This one is directed to Wink. You’ve probably had your fighters get some pretty bad injuries. We saw some photos of Cecil [SP]. Is there anything that chiropractic has been able to help in those types of situations?
Mike: Oh, yeah. You know, there’s no doubt about it. Like I said, it’s probably number one I’d go to first around here because of the hands-on, the falling weight-wise on each other. Like I said, you know, often the hips are out a little bit. The knees sometimes get a little it…everything gets out of balance a little bit. Ankles need to be popped back in. We’ve had joints coming out, little dislocations that chiropractors can help us with, you know, fingers, those type of things. And then with that and like a little bit of physical therapy, like I said, the hands-on, that is by far the most beneficial thing that we’ve had at our gym. That’s why we have an on-site person that’s actually here to help these fighters, so they can train at the highest level.
Daniel: Yeah. So, I would imagine that possibly taking a diplomate in sports medicine, getting some extended training. Definitely something like the Red Cross or state course is really quite good.
Dr. Pridham: Yes. And there’s the CCSP through the American Chiropractic Association with their diplomate. And with that certification, you can work a lot with the larger organizations with the Olympics and within the UFC. I think it’s always important to continue your training.
Daniel: Well, okay. Well, I’d like to thank you, Mike and Dr. Pridham. We have a special offer for today’s participants in this webinar. Everyone attending will receive a link by email to download a free e-book if you’d like to learn more by using topical analgesics and it’s titled, “The DC’s Guide to Topical Analgesics: The Basics About Them That Every DC Should Know.” And at this time, we’d like to thank our sponsor, Sombra Professional Therapy Products, Mike Wilkeljohn and Michael Pridham, DC for today’s webinar. And thank you all for attending. Remember, this webinar including our speaker’s Powerpoint presentation has been recorded. We’ll alert you when the webinar is available online. Thank you again everyone for attending and we look forward to seeing you next time. Have a great day. Mike and Dr. Pridham, thank you so much.
Dr. Pridham: All right. Thank you.
Mike: Hey, Dan, thanks for having me.
Daniel: No problem. Talk to you soon. Take care, guys.
Dr. Pridham: Thanks, Mike.